5 tips on how to use content marketing neuroscience to grab your audience [with Ahava Leibtag] | DMR #259

Full transcript:

David Bain
Digital Marketing Radio Episode 259: 5 tips on how to use neuroscience to grab your audience’s attention

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Digital Marketing Radio with David Bain

David Bain
I’m David Bain. And this is Digital Marketing Radio, the podcast and YouTube show for in-house agency and entrepreneurial marketers who want to stay on top that it is tools, tactics and trends as shared and DMR by today’s modern marketing masters. Now, we all know that content marketing is an essential part of today’s marketing mix. But there are so many different forms of content, how does everything fit together? And how would you truly capture the attention of your audience in the current era of content overload? Those are just two of the questions that I’m going to be asking my guest on Digital Marketing Radio, Episode 259. She is a 2020 in duck see into the healthcare internet Hall of Fame as an innovative individual has 20 plus years of experience in content, and is founder of aha media, a copywriting content strategy and content marketing consultancy based just outside of Washington, DC in the US. Welcome to DMR, Ahava Leibtag.

Ahava Leibtag
Hi, it’s great to be here, David. Thank you.

David Bain
Oh, thank you. So great to have you on here. You can find Ahava over at AhaMediaGroup.com. So today we’re sharing about five tips on how to use neuroscience to grab your audience’s attention. So how does neuroscience fit into content marketing?

Ahava Leibtag
Sure. So I think the first thing that most of us know intuitively because we got into this business, because we love to tell stories is that the brain is primed for storytelling, we actually learned best through narrative that probably came about because we pass stories on to our children in order to make sure that they could survive. So for example, you would tell them stories about like, where there were berries, or when somebody ate a berry That was dangerous for them or something like that. And so we really learned through storytelling. And in fact, one of the things I always tell my team is, facts tell stories sell. So you can talk all the facts you want about a product or a service. But if you don’t talk about the story behind why something is happening, you’re not going to captivate people, which is really what we’re looking to do. So that’s the first thing that I would tell people is that the brain is primed for stories. And once you get people into the story, then you can start talking to them about the differentiators of the services and the products. But first you got to tell the story. One of the things I always the stories that I tell that sort of captures this for me is that when Steve Jobs first introduced the iPod to the world, he held it up and he said, you can carry 10,000 songs in your pocket right away. That’s just a story that people can immediately think about all those CDs, all those records that I have in all those cassette tapes, now all of a sudden, they’re on this tiny device, he didn’t talk about the memory or the design or anything like that he just went straight into the emotional storytelling capture of it. And I think that when you’re creating content marketing, very often, we tend to zero in on the things that we think are important to people, because in our corporate lives, or agency lives, or even our own entrepreneurial agency setting, or you know, as a business owner, we think that the the, the facts and the you know, data points and all that is really what’s important to people, but first, you got to pull them in with a great story. And then you can start to sell them on the things that are really going to make the difference to them in the buying process.

David Bain
I love her and Steve Jobs is a wonderful example as well, you didn’t actually even at the time realise that he was using stories, it was just he just felt so relatable and so obvious. And he put it so succinctly as to why this new product was relevant to the audience and why everyone absolutely had to have one, if you’ve focused on those tiny powders, five gigabytes, and you can store that amount of data on there, perhaps as Bill Gates would have done, you would have never actually sold as many.

Ahava Leibtag
Well, it’s interesting about Steve Jobs, because I think that and I know this is gonna take us off. But I just want to say this is that, you know, very often we tend to look down on sales, or sales and marketing have friction with each other. And there’s all kinds of like issues there. But I think one of the interesting thing about Steve Jobs is that if you were to ask somebody, what’s the first thing you think of when you think of Steve Jobs, you think of innovation, but he was also a great salesperson. I mean, he really knew how to sell an idea. And in fact, I think the great entrepreneurs and minds that we look up to today really understand how to sell ideas to people. And I think that when you’re telling a story, that’s what you’re doing, you’re selling an idea.

David Bain
So just before we get to the core topic, you focus on healthcare marketing, so it’s different to other forms of content marketing.

Ahava Leibtag
Well, so then the next thing I’m going to talk about in terms of neuroscience is something called the amygdala hijack. So when somebody is confronted with information that’s super scary to them as in a health care setting, whether it’s my child has a croupy cough to Oh my God, I found a lump in my body, they’re immediately taken into that sort of like reptilian part of their brain, which is where our fight or flight centre happens. And as soon as we’re triggered with something dangerous, lets you see a snake, you know, immediately your body starts pumping out cortisol, in order to help you make the decision of do I run, which I need this extra hormone to do, or do I stay in fight, which I need this extra hormone to do. And so anytime I’ve seen a snake of run, just to be clear about that, so so that’s, that’s where in healthcare, it’s so incredibly important to pay attention to calming people down using very plain language, I call it patient centric language or customer centric language, explaining things in a very, not simple, but a way that’s easy for them to understand breaking down complex topics, so that you’re moving them along a path. This is called adult learning theory, progressive disclosure, people who have experience with web writing might actually call this bite smack meal, meaning you give people a small bite of information so that they can sort of calm down that amygdala hijack, then you give them a snack, which sort of brings them into their executive functioning into their frontal cortex of their brain. And then you give them the meal, which is now they’re calm enough to really be able to understand what’s happening. So that’s in healthcare, that is probably the most important thing that we do even more than storytelling. Because when somebody is confronted with something, and they start googling, you know, like crazy, what’s wrong with me, whatever, you want to sort of calm them down when they find your content, so that immediately trust is created. And then they can really learn what they need to know in order to make that important decision.

David Bain
Lots of great tips there. I’m not sure within what you said, there, you’ve covered covered any of the tips, but but let’s focus specifically on the five tips on how to use neuroscience to grab your audience’s attention. So what is tip number one?

Ahava Leibtag
So tip number one is to tell stories, stories, facts, sell facts, tell stories sell. So that’s the first one, the first one is just tell a great story. And every story within it has three things exposition, conflict and resolution. So I once had a music teacher, a professor in college, who said to us, imagine if you went to a Broadway play, and you were watching people coming home from work, kissing each other, sitting down at the dinner table having a conversation? He’s like, how long do you think that Broadway play would be open? He’s like a night, maybe there has to be conflict, right. And typically, when you’re talking about marketing, and I’m not talking about storytelling in general, now, when you’re talking about marketing, the conflict really should lie inside of what the person is grappling with, what kinds of information do they need. And that’s really where great stories come from. Very often, one of the effective techniques is we think that customer testimonials are really critical, and you know, case studies and that kind of thing. But when you’re writing a great case study, you have to find the conflict that this client that you helped, that that person who’s reading the case study relates to. And so I always tell people start off with a story. Even in the executive summary, try to find something that you can put in there that helps somebody understand why this is relatable to them. The second thing is is to use customer centric language. plain language is defined as can people find what they need, you understand what they need, and use what they need. So when when you’re talking about basic content marketing, let’s say in an IT situation, the amygdala hijack may not really be happening that often. But at some point, in a B2B situation, even somebody may really be nervous about a decision that they have to make. And it’s hard for them to focus on the content. So you really want to use that language that helps explain things to people in a way that sort of that bite snack meal, give them the information that they need. let them choose to keep going and learning more and more about the topic that you’re talking about. So I just think that’s the second thing is knowing that the brain can get overloaded with information slowly taking people along a path is really important.

David Bain
So customer centric languages. That’s part of the tip number one, or is that beginning of tip number two.

Unknown Speaker
Tip number two. Okay,

David Bain
okay, got you. amygdala hijack. I haven’t heard of that before. They’re coming up with language that’s difficult to pronounce, but wonderful to research. Certainly.

Ahava Leibtag
Well, I think that, you know, when you’re talking about neuroscience, understanding the three parts of the brain are really important. You know, the, the, that amygdala is the centre of the brain. If you believe in evolution, then you believe that that was the first part of the brain. Then the midbrain And then the frontal cortex is what makes us different than lower mammals, because we’re able to have executive reasoning and functioning in that part of our brain and enables us to create to have ideas to do things like that. So you will only see that amongst gorillas, whales, you know, the higher mammals, you don’t see that in the lower mammals. And that’s why that’s where culture comes from. That’s where storytelling comes from. So I think that, you know, understanding that our brains are very important to the way we make decisions is really helpful for marketers, because we’re always trying to figure out what makes our audience tick, but you’re talking to humans, so they all have brains. And they all have a certain way that they react to things that’s been proven through science. So just knowing that I thought, I think sort of sets a level playing field for how people can think about, okay, how do I tell stories? How do I calm people down? How do I teach them according to the way that adults learn, and so on, and so forth.

David Bain
And I love the way that you’re using great storytelling to teach content marketing heroes, oh, it’s certainly something that people will remember, I would imagine that you’re giving these kinds of talks face to face, or when you can actually deliver speeches. And this is particularly memorable. What what kind of feedback do you get from what you’re sharing at the moment?

Ahava Leibtag
I think people really love it. I think they love it for two reasons. The first is, is that they remember it. And the second thing is, is that when they have to defend their choices, they can defend them based on data and science. So we always talk about it. I have Media Group writers make choices. I mean, everyone makes choices, right? But I whenever my children leave the house, I say to them make good choices. But writers make choices. And so one of the values that I always use when I’m talking to writers about their work is tell me why you made the choice you made. Why did you use this keyword versus this keyword? Why did you put the story here? Why is the lead in the third paragraph, instead of the first paragraph, tell me what you’re thinking. If a writer has a really strategic answer for why they made the choice that they made, then I have a great conversation with them. If they’re like, well, I just did it because I did it. That’s a very different type of conversation. And so I think that the reason people love these ideas around neuroscience and marketing is that when they’re talking to their executives, or their bosses or their colleagues about, let’s try this, it’s based in neuroscience, it immediately gives it sort of a heft and a truth to it. That, oh, let’s just do this. Because we want to do this type of situation.

David Bain
Yeah. Great, great answer.

Unknown Speaker
Yeah,

David Bain
have we made it onto tip three? Or are we just

Ahava Leibtag
tip three? Yeah, we’re on to three. So the Vaughn restore effect says that people notice things that they that stick out. So have you ever played that game? Which one of these things doesn’t belong?

David Bain
I think so. No, reasonably.

Ahava Leibtag
That’s so that’s the Vaughn restaurant effect, the vine restaurant effect says that, you know, and that also comes from evolution, right? The idea that we were on the plane, and then all of a sudden, something would come in that looked different that triggered in our brain, oh, we need to figure out what this is. So our minds are really designed to look for patterns and things because that helps us survive. And then we we really want everything to just be the same all the time, which is probably why people suffer so much. So many behavioural health and mental health issues. Because we don’t live in a society that really aligns with what our brains want. Our brains don’t want danger. They don’t want change. They don’t want constant, you know, attention, clinging, beeping phones, they really want things to be level. So the rest are perfect. And marketing allows us to do that. So I’ll give you an example. Imagine all these green apples in a row, like for green apples, and then one is red. Where’s your I immediately gonna go? It’s gonna go to the red one because it’s different. So a famous consumer example of this is eat more chicken from chick fil a. So it’s a picture of a cow. And then it is a you know, the word chicken is misspelt, because the cow is saying it that’s supposed to be funny. But actually, if the marketers realised it or they didn’t realise it, that was the Vaughn restaurant effect, they were using a misspelling of the word chicken to get people to pay attention to the ad. So that can be very, very helpful in a content marketing situation, the vine restaurant effect because you can use it to sort of get people to pay attention and say, which one of these things doesn’t belong? Perfect example is, is Seth Godin is the purple cow. You never seen a purple cow, all of a sudden there’s a purple cow. That’s the Vaughn restaurant effect. And then where it’s highly debated in marketing, I think more than anyplace else is whether or not to use emojis in your content. So that would be an example of a restaurant effect. Most subject lines and emails don’t have emojis. So when you’re looking at your inbox and you see one pop up, that your eye and brain zeroing in on that emoji is a example of the vine restaurant effect. Got You okay?

David Bain
And if someone’s writing a big piece of content, how do you actually bring this principle into effect or get someone to focus on a specific piece of text, for example,

Ahava Leibtag
this is not a well, you could use font design and things like that. But this is not a word neuroscience issue. This is more of a visual issue, although I do think it’s a visual issue, the VI master effect. I do think you can do that with words. But it’s a very different kind of play. And I don’t know if it fits into that neuroscience category. Okay,

David Bain
but it’s something wonderful to think about. Great tip, though. It’s tip number three, what is Tip number four?

Ahava Leibtag
Tip number four is something called the Eaton Rosen phenomenon. And that’s the idea that we want language to be melodious and to sort of rhyme in a sense. So if you think of like the old commercials, like be like Mike, or Timex, it takes a lickin and keeps on ticking. So those are examples of things that, that people use in order to get people’s attention. In the United States, for example, there’s been a lot of vaccine, sort of public health campaigns, and they’ve used rhyming words, you know, to sort of get people to, to think about getting, getting the vaccine. Something from health care, seven reasons why your health affects your wealth, or can you control your mood around food? Those are examples of the eating Rosen phenomenon that sort of help people hear things in a way that makes them stick in the mind.

David Bain
If it doesn’t fit, you must acquit. Exactly. Yes.

Ahava Leibtag
That’s exactly it. So yeah, I think that that’s, that’s, that’s an important one. And I what I always say to people is I don’t think you need to make it rhyme Exactly. But it needs to flow. It needs to sound good. That’s why it’s so important to read your content out loud. Because if you can’t hear what it sounds like, you can’t hear what it’s going to sound like for somebody when they’re reading it in their own head.

David Bain
Yeah, yeah. Lots to think about there. But let’s move on to tip number five. So what’s that one?

Ahava Leibtag
So that’s something called the causal leap. And the causal leap is the idea that what happens if you don’t put enough facts into the story to help people make the right determination. So I always use an example I’m going to read off my screen here from a book called The Invisible gorilla. Listen to these two sentences. Joey’s Big Brother punched him again and again. The next day, his body was covered by bruises. Joey’s crazy mom became furiously angry with him. The next day, his body was covered by bruises. So most people, when they were asked, they thought and Joey’s mother was the reason why Joey was covered with bruises, because that was the second sentence that you read. But really, the first sentence told you that Joey’s Big Brother actually punched him. So that’s where the causal loop comes in, is that you really have to fill in the the information for people and make it as clear as possible. I’ll give you another example. The divorce rate in Maine correlates with per capita consumption of margarine. So if you eat a certain amount of margarine, your divorce your divorce follows through with that.

David Bain
That’s really it sounds like an excellent

Ahava Leibtag
tool. Right? But we do that all the time. Because our job and our brands is to fill in information. That doesn’t make sense. You see children do this all the time because they don’t have enough information to process the world. Political parties.

David Bain
What is political parties do that all the time?

Ahava Leibtag
Every right everyone? Oh, you know what you can look at the the Coronavirus is like the perfect example of this. You know, people are making all sorts of jumps in their heads. Well, we’ve never seen this before, it must be a biological weapon. So no comment on that. I’m not trying to make a political statement. I’m just saying that people stay

David Bain
away from 5g. No.

Ahava Leibtag
People especially if you got the vaccine that chip might magnetise. But people I think do tend to make leaps in their thinking that are not appropriate or really don’t follow. So when you’re writing content, and you’re thinking about putting together campaigns, make sure you clearly spell these things out. I’ll give you an example. A lot of times you read a case study and sometimes you’re confused, like what exactly did the company do to affect the success that they had? And I think the reason this happens is because the person writing assumes that the person reading the case study understands what the company does and understands that obviously, they made this makes sense. You know, obviously, they were the one that affected the change. So that’s where I very often am reading content. I think to myself, you didn’t tie these two ideas together strongly enough. And therefore you allowed for there to be this causal leak that might be wrong.

David Bain
So a lot of information there. And it’s almost information overload for a content marketer that’s just thinking about creating a piece of content, and other maybe one or two examples of where specifically within the customer buying cycle where to fit in these examples. For example, a big hero piece of content where someone’s discovering your brand for the first time or maybe a piece of hub episode. Content where someone’s building up your perception of your brand your authority as a thought leader, either one or two instances of, of where to use these tactics, these these wonderful skills in those pieces of content.

Ahava Leibtag
Absolutely. So why don’t we think about the funnel, because I think that that’s an important thing that most people think about. So I think at the top of the funnel, the Eaton Rosen phenomenon and the Von restore effect are both attention grabbing neuroscience techniques, you can get people to pay attention by showing them something visually, that doesn’t fit or by using words that rhyme. Once you’ve captured their attention, and you’re in the middle of the funnel, and you sort of want to explain things to them, you really want to think about that bite snack meal of progressive disclosure approach, that sort of works to calm down any sort of amygdala hijack, make sure that that’s making sense. You want to tell stories, definitely in the top in the middle of the funnel, and then at the bottom of the funnel, you really want to think about that causal leap, making sure that you’re tying together the idea of this success that you’re showing them with the potential for them to have success by using your product or service. Great,

David Bain
thank you. I’ve got a lot to think about there. I’m developing a content marketing model myself at the moment. So I think, Oh, really listened to that and think we’re exactly where you’ve shared fits into various parts of that as well. But I’d say well, let’s segue to part two of our discussions. So it’s now time for harvest thoughts on the state of digital marketing today. So starting off with SECRET SOFTWARE. So I have a Sherif lesser-known martech tool that’s bringing you a lot of value at the moment and why that tool is important for you.

Ahava Leibtag
So I actually think this is probably not well known in the I’ll tell you two The first is Grammarly. And the second is the Hemingway app. Grammarly actually has a voice and Tone Analyzer now. And I think that very often when we’re creating content, we’re really thinking about SEO and optimization and all that stuff. But we also have to think about how it’s going to land with the end user. And so running your content through some of these software’s that help make sure that it is plain language, that people do understand that that it’s in the active voice that you’re following all these best practices, I think really does sort of help create the best type of content possible written content for your audience. So I would highly suggest Grammarly, pro as well as Hemingway and Hemingway, you just cut, copy and paste a piece of content and it’s digital reader will tell you all kinds of things that you need to know about whether or not it’s good content.

David Bain
Great. Okay, so I think I’ve experimented with Hemingway app before. And I’ve also experiment experimented with a tool called Jarvis AI. So they essentially write content on your behalf. So how close in your opinion, is AI to being able to write content on your behalf? Or are we a long way away from that happening?

Ahava Leibtag
Yeah, I don’t, I haven’t really seen an example in the history of the world where artificial intelligence was really able to take over a creative endeavour for people. But hey, you never know.

David Bain
You never know. Worried about it right now. Well, that’s good to know. So let’s move on from something that you currently use to something that you’re going to use. So that is NEXT ON THE LIST. So what’s one marketing activity or tool that you haven’t tried yet, but you want to test soon?

Ahava Leibtag
Enough, I really want to try reels, because I think they’re fun. And I think it’s an opportunity, I think Instagrams a better channel for kind of the stuff that I do. And I’ll have Media Group. But I don’t know. I’m not sure yet. I don’t know. And so since I don’t know, I haven’t really tried it. But maybe after this interview, I’ll go and put one together just because I do think that there’s value in thinking through how to attract people’s attention in different types of ways. I just don’t know that healthcare marketers are really hanging out on Instagram watching reels about health care content.

David Bain
Yeah, possibly. No. I mean, it’s a different form of content, certainly, that you will have to use. No, I am not heavy on Instagram at all. And it’s something that I always think I should be, but I haven’t been, oh my gosh, yes, this is totally the type of thing that people would want to always it’s great to take maybe 60 seconds pilots and use that as

Ahava Leibtag
you need 60 seconds. I mean, you could do a whole interview in one shot the whole thing, but you can do you know, the 15 minutes, so I would use it,

David Bain
definitely. But you’re also supposed to obviously use the Instagram app natively. If you’re going to do live streaming, and you can unofficially through your desktop, use an app and to broadcast like to Instagram but I don’t want to be doing things that I’m really not supposed to be doing or that the app doesn’t want to be doing. And the look and feel of the podcast of the video show was going to be quite different if I’m just using my my phone for that, but maybe I should experiment with it. Certainly I’m

Ahava Leibtag
certainly take a picture as part of the programme like me and you on the screen right now. And then post it to your Instagram and say like my next guest is link in the bio, you know, so there’s all kinds of ways to use Instagram

David Bain
back don’t see anything else apart from your rights. Yes. Okay, let’s move on to this or that round. So this is the quick response round 10 quick questions, Just 2 rules here. Try not to think about the answer too much. And you’re only allowed to say the word both on one occasion, so use it wisely. Are you ready? Yes. Tick Tock or Twitter, tick tock, Facebook or LinkedIn, LinkedIn, YouTube or podcast, YouTube, traffic or leads. leads, paid search or SEO, SEO, ads or influencers, influencers, Google ads or Facebook ads, Facebook ads, email marketing or chat marketing, email marketing, bar tech stack or all in one platform. Depends on me, but I didn’t think you had a boat like okay. One to one or scale. One to one. So there were two answer one answer surprised me that was you said Tick Tock rather than Twitter. Are you actively using Tick tock tick tock at the moment?

Ahava Leibtag
I think Twitter is a garbage dump. Okay, I really do. I think it’s like one of the worst things ever invented in the history of the world, including almost every social media channel. So

David Bain
say what you mean? Yes.

Ahava Leibtag
I mean, yeah, um, I think there’s a lot of this has to do with the political climate that were in in in the United States. And it’s hard to really understand it, I guess, if you’re not there. Although I know that every country in the world is suffering through some sort of similar type of experience and less paper, he turned to communist. But I think that the first major issue that I have about Twitter is the disinhibition. Right? In other words, you can say anything to anyone, because you don’t know them, you’re not sitting face to face to them, you don’t have this relationship with them. And so you’ll say things that you would never say in cotton, when you’re sitting with somebody in the same room as them with Tick tock, although the comments have that opportunity. It’s not really like that, you know what I’m saying? Like you don’t, it’s really just a visual fun medium. I also think that when you’re talking about education, there’s more of an opportunity on tik tok to introduce people to ideas in a creative, fun way than you really have on Twitter. And so I, even though I think that that app has all sorts of problems, basically, because it’s sucking all of our data into the Chinese government, I still do believe that it could be a more valuable medium for marketers certain kinds. Listen, every single question you asked me was, it depends. You told me I could only use both one. So I used it dependent, with martek versus, you know, all in one stack versus all in one platform. And I really believe that about marketing in general, I always talk about the fact that just because it’s a best practice doesn’t mean it’s the best practice for you. We ungated our content, there are very few companies that would do that. The first piece of content we released with absolutely no gate had 143% more downloads than the content that we published with a gate. That’s unbelievable. track those leads absolutely not doesn’t matter to me, absolutely not. Because it wasn’t the type of content that I produced in order to get leads, it was the type of content that I produced to be useful to my audience. And that’s what’s so funny about content marketing versus marketing in general, which is that content marketing, the idea was to build relationships with people, it’s hard to build relationships with people, when you’re saying to them, give me all your information in order to get something of value. And so that is a best practice in a place like Cisco, because they have ROI issues, they have to go and report back on their numbers and their leads. But for me running a content company with, you know, 50, writers, editors and content strategists, I still have control to say, I want to influence my community positively. And I’m willing to lose my lead capturing system for this piece of content, because I would rather share the information and get it out there and create brand awareness. So it’s all it’s all a game of figuring out what works best for you. And the beautiful thing and the scary thing. And the fun thing is that, you know, on Wednesday, what works at 10am may not work at Thursday at 3pm. And that’s what makes our game so fun.

David Bain
Should you not have one piece of content that’s gated? Not anymore. We removed all of our gates. Okay, and so you just rely on people to come to you and use your contact form on your website when they want to reach out to you.

Ahava Leibtag
Yeah, so I’ll tell you what happened after we ungated our social media followers went up 45%. And our email subscriptions went up 55%.

David Bain
So what’s your what’s your call to action to get people to subscribe to your email list?

Ahava Leibtag
It’s on the website. And it’s available to them, you know, when they download something. So in other words, what they were saying to themselves was the hypothesis we don’t really know is that oh, I don’t I have to give them my information, but they gave me something of value, I’m going to keep following them. Whereas when you download something, and you give them their information, and they put you on their email list, you have to then go and unsubscribe. So this was a very active sort of following. And it really has turned out to be great for us our leads went up. I mean, it’s just been every way. It’s been really fantastic. And the industry is watching it. I mean, there’s been a lot of publications and handli wrote about it, Andy crestodina, wrote about it, Drew Davis covered it. So I think it’s an exciting thing to think about that you don’t have to gate every single piece of content and create

David Bain
a you can put five interesting answers to every question that I asked. So I want to dig deeper and deeper, but I can’t do that to every single question. So let’s just move on to the $10,000 question, if I wish it could be $10,000, you had to spend over the next few days in a single thing to grow your business? What would you spend it on? And how would you measure success? This is a stumper.

Ahava Leibtag
I really don’t know the answer to this question. I think for me, I would use it on asking my customers in a blind research, study what they need from us, and how we can better serve them. Because I’m always trying to learn more about who I’m selling to. And the only way for me to know is to talk to the people that already use our services.

David Bain
already use your services. Okay, just to, um, what’s the ultimate objective to actually try to determine additional services that you should be offering but aren’t currently?

Ahava Leibtag
Yes. And what could we be doing better? How can we improve what we offer them? Because in those answers, what I found from experience is that I can figure out the next time I pitch what people in the same boat need to hear.

David Bain
Great. Oh, to finish off, let’s shift the focus to someone else who deserves it. So that is MAGICAL MARKETER. So here’s an up-and coming marketer that you’d like to give a shout out to what can we learn from them and where can we find them?

Ahava Leibtag
He is one of my favourite people ever. His name is Derrick black, just do a search on him d a r e k black, and then you could write in conversational tone. He wrote a fantastic article article for Content Marketing Institute on how to write more conversationally, and I interviewed him for a show that I did called What did you learn which ran during the pandemic? shockingly, it’s still around. I maybe I ended it a little too early. But he was fantastic. I love him. He’s so thoughtful. He’s so well read. It’s just unbelievable to talk to him. Like everything he says is like a gem that you can use. So follow him talk to him worship at his feet. He’s really a genius.

David Bain
Wow. Well, so this was Episode 259 of Digital Marketing Radio where I have a lead tag from a Hi Media shared five incredible tips. Number one, tell stories number two, customer centric language. Number two the Varner resource effect known as the isolation effect restaurant, perfect rest off. Okay. I’ll tell you what, trying to make notes nicely. pronounce words that you haven’t heard before. It’s a bit of a challenge sometimes needs some reflections. But we nearly got there. Tip number four use language that rhymes to be memorable. And tip number five, the casual leapin allows you to infer something that might have happened. But of course, use that ethically don’t use that in a bad way. Your SECRET SOFTWARE was the Hemingway app. And also you mentioned gramley and your NEXT ON THE LIST was Instagram reals finishing up with your MAGICAL MARKETER who was Derek black. I have a what’s the best social platform for someone to follow you and to say Hi. Probably LinkedIn. LinkedIn. Okay, super fun. I’ll make sure that that’s in the show notes there on Digital Marketing radio.com as well. Thank you for having me. This was super fun. Thank you so much for coming on. I’ve been your host David Bain. You can also find me producing podcasts and YouTube shows for B2B brands over at Casting cred.com until we meet again, stay hungry, stay foolish and stay subscribed. Aloha

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