What questions should you ask your SEO consultant? – Lukasz Zelezny | DMR #227

Full transcript:

David Bain
Are you thinking of employing an SEO consultant, if so, how actually you can do do that and what questions you’re going to be focusing in on, and how are you going to ensure that you have the insight that matters. On today’s episode of digital marketing radio we’re going to be reviewing the top questions to ask your SEO consultants. Joining me to discuss that is one of the keys. Scratch that, one of the world’s leading SEO personalities. He’s overseen rapid organic growth for several top brands including uSwitch Zoopla and Fleetway travel. He currently runs his own SEO consultancy service based in London and it’s been nearly six years since his first appearance on digital marketing radio areas, welcome back to DMR, Lukasz Zelezny.

Lukasz Zelezny
Hello, thank you for having me. What a great intro, thank you very much. I don’t remember anyone who introduced me that way.

David Bain
Thank you. You’re special man. You deserve it, I’m sure, sir. You can find like it’s over. It’s six years exactly. I thought you’d be shocked at that stat so you were on. It was nearly six It was March 2015 That you were on digital marketing radio episodes at something I think it was. And here we are, here we are both going strong. I want to tell the listener, the viewer, you can find Lucas over SEO dot London so I guess the first question is, why don’t London.

Lukasz Zelezny
Well, this is a story when I noticed that I think Sadiq Khan when kind of involved on the kind of Ambassador of the fact that we can have dog London, and I started looking at the domain. You know my son name is the one that probably only two people can spell it right. My father and myself, you know,

David Bain
your wife hasn’t quite actually figured out yet.

Lukasz Zelezny
She’s sometimes, the size, so I was like, Zelazny is maybe not Zelensky is Eleni is always like wrong so I was thinking like I need to have something simple and said, London, because I wanted initially to target London. When I noticed that London you know is so big, as you know you have so many people that the size of of Denmark or Austria, you know, it’s a country inside the country. And, yeah, and then this domain also been on premium so the price was much higher, maybe not like super high, but much higher than the normal domain, so thanks to the other was the situation that the domain squatters, be not interested to buy this later one of my SEO good colleague who is really into domain told me that he was thinking to buy this and I was faster. So I paid this premium price that they also go that he blocked my account for one day because they didn’t know what’s going on. And then the main was, was mine so I emailed at the renew this for five, five years and when I left you switch and Zoopla I just launched the website.

David Bain
So, have you had any issues with anyone typing in SEO London not calm or anything else. Instead, or is your target consumer largely savvy about some SEO dot London domains.

Lukasz Zelezny
Yeah they are okay, I just noticed that sometimes there are some registration forums that don’t recognise you know they are using regex, and they not recognise that you can have dot word, which is quite strange because you have dot museum for many many many many years, or dot iro, they are still looking for dot three letters or D and human. Okay. Well, you know, lots of agencies have got digital I think our friend from Scotland

David Bain
roster Avondale Yeah, love.

Lukasz Zelezny
Yes, we had this conversation, sometimes people are thinking of the CEO that london.com Yeah, but But 99% are are absolutely fine with it.

David Bain
Okay, okay, I think it’s something that is going to be more common in the future. Obviously it’s becoming less and less possible to actually have the.com in the brand name that you want as well as it’s a little bit unique and different as well and an agency you’re doing it but obviously this isn’t the core subject of today’s discussion. You’re kind enough to share some questions with me beforehand, of the types of questions that you actually recommend someone asking an SEO consultant before you hire them. So, here are your six questions that you recommend so starting off with number one, it’s Have you worked in a similar industry, so is it very important for an SEO to have experience in that same industry that the clients and

Lukasz Zelezny
it’s not essential but is good to have that is probably one of this trigger that is easy, much easier to convince your customer potential customer so once again I’m, I will be talking from the consultant perspective, and the client perspective, obviously I know that we are here to help potential businesses hiring consultant. So when the business is asking for example, if you was ever working with a properties, or maybe not such properties but in inventory based websites, so it can be, you know, cars, yachts properties or holidays, so we have a big big big inventory, and the core SEO is done based on this inventory, then obviously you can say like, yeah, I was working in the Properties maybe not in progress as such but I was working in a holiday rentals, which is in some areas similar okay spot on bank next question. It’s not like critical, especially like when you’re dealing with. Recently I started to have a couple of, like for example, chartered surveyor London which is quite niche or for example, some some other very niche kind of specific b2b businesses, and you cannot answer like hey I was working because that would make that situation would be very rad that he was working the same business before, but it’s very convincing moment.

David Bain
Okay, okay. And the next question is, are you hands on, or do you act as an advisor, so that that’s an important question and

Lukasz Zelezny
that’s, that’s the common confusion between a consultant slash advisor and freelancer or a remote worker, so I always on the first introduction meeting. i am informing my potential clients potential. Someone who sent the lead, lead, and a qualified lead that you’re talking to consultant. So I am here to help your team to achieve, what should be achieved at the moment you may not even know what you want to achieve, and I’m here also to help first to have a conversation with you set up proper KPIs set up proper way of measuring these KPIs and then feed these KPIs to the team which is between, in that case me. And so I’m sitting between the board or CEO, CFO MD and people who are more hands on, and that’s our front end developers, that’s our content writers, predominantly, that can be, you know, sometimes PR, it can be also in house PPC, so we can kind of amalgamate strategies of paid and organic, but it’s very very important moment because client must know what is your role, and it’s nothing wrong. If the client will say, Well, this is not actually what I’m looking for. I’m looking for someone who will do things because we don’t have a team. Fair enough. If that happened to me, I’m like listen, in that case, I have a couple of people I can recommend you, or when a client is saying like no I don’t have this and that, then I’m saying like, Listen, that will not be a good match, because I am here rather to have weekly call with you and tell you, this and that, and to not to optimise meta title meta description and fix broken links.

David Bain
Okay, so that’s a great piece of advice for someone selling SEO consultancy services as well as people buying SEO consultant services to be very specific about what it is that they’re going to do when you actually hire them, are they going to be the person that dives into the detail of what the issue is and provide you with a strategy to move forward with, or are they actually going to implement the strategy as well. Question number three is, are you more technical or content orientated. Why do you have that question in there.

Lukasz Zelezny
Yeah, this is very common question as well because sometimes people are coming and saying like, you know, we have this team of five content writers who are writing but we don’t see results. Are you okay to help with content, or you are more about this kind of technical aspects, very often customers just heard that there is something like technical SEO, they may not be able to have a have Duncan. Thank you. They may not call the areas of what technical SEO is, but they are very specific, they saying like, listen, we have this content team because our website is heavy on content, can you work with them, and then I’m like, listen, I can not only work with them but I can also help them with non English and non English language, because this is funny. I have client for from Netherlands, and I cannot say a single word in Dutch. And that doesn’t make any any problem I have a German customer, I should be more careful in the school when I had the German lessons but instead of, I was, I was trying to skip this lessons because it didn’t. I’m not very good with languages. So, that way you know, you know, that you are on the same bandwagon as the client. Now, sometimes client is not asking this question so you can say like, Listen, I’m, I’m a seasoned consultant, fully on what needs to be done. So for me, that doesn’t make any difference if this is, if this is content, or this is technical. I will take care of both, both sides. But sometimes it’s very important that if the client is coming and client have experience with their creaminess here, and they have a good results, they must express that. Listen, We have one problem one specific problem. Our CLS or LCP is not where it should be. Can you help us, because in that case, I can remove everything from the scope, and I can say okay, these guys are really on into PageSpeed. God knows why they want to go this way, maybe I agree with this, maybe I don’t agree I can suggest like listen, maybe this is not the way that will immediately bring your effect, but if you really want, you know, how we call this client by client by master in Polish you saying yeah, client my master, whatever client wants. I will help.

David Bain
Yeah, just just the client is my master, you can, you can certainly say that as well. And just for the podcast listener. You may have heard lucassi or Duncan, a couple of minutes ago. Well that’s because Duncan, wrote a message on LinkedIn where we’re broadcasting live saying I love this Lucas SEO guy he tells it how it is. The random reference the name Duncan there, Lucas. He also mentioned that you had a client in Poland, and that you don’t speak any Dutch at all. However, you mentioned as one of your other questions. What languages can you work in, so it’s not important than necessarily for the SEO consultant to speak the language that the science in

Lukasz Zelezny
no to some point, Europe is Europe and here you know obviously we have different languages, but we have lots of tools that cover this languages, obviously the problem starts when you start, when you have language that is using own alphabet, so I wouldn’t I wouldn’t be probably able to help Bulgarians, businesses, or Russian, businesses, and that’s funny because I can understand to some point Russian but we say cannot read and hear. Reading is the same with Japanese. The same with Chinese, you know, tools doesn’t cover this keyword you are completely blind, you not only have language language that you don’t understand. You have alphabet that you don’t understand. You very often have URLs that contain this letters in alphabet. If maybe some of our listeners, knows how the Georgian alphabet looks like, you know, it’s it’s like completely different so that’s this point, like, I’m like, You know what, now I cannot help you, but you know like gentlemen that, you know, there are, there is so many common points that, obviously that’s possible. To understand this, because you working with in house team who can give you feedback like listen, that’s not productive that we’re dealing with, and that means this that means this, I’m like okay so guys, this is a pool of keywords, try to group them into packages, and then we will start building content based on this packages.

David Bain
Question number five the recommend is how does interaction between you and our in house team look like why did why do you recommend that question.

Lukasz Zelezny
So, there must be interaction, the there must be rhythm with with consultant that there must be rhythm, this is the added value, very, maybe not very often, but sometimes when businesses hearing that there is a consultant, they are immediately thinking like, Ah, so this guy just want to talk to us. This is partially to the guy he’s talking to, but it’s also very important weekly meeting, absolutely essential. And if needed, twice a week, I have at the moment one client who have, I have two meetings a week, and I really love it, I have Monday, and then Thursday they are a bit different. But generally, most of my clients, 99% have weekly meetings, and it must happen, it must move on, even if there is very little to have a conversation about that specific way. It’s good to just see to meet, because everyone is feeling pressured that Okay, tomorrow is a CEO meeting I need to prepare something, and I’m, and I’m expecting for myself, I’m like, Okay, have I help the in house team of this and that company with eternal keywords with a keyword selection, or did I send them, let’s say, additional outcome of the audit, what they need to fix this week, and so on and so on so everyone feels this legal pressure, and there is this book how to make things done. I don’t remember how for right now, but one of the very prominent SEO show me this on SEM rush on SEM rush on SEM rush meeting. So I think that this is very important to have this meeting and this guy was also saying that having meetings every two weeks, that doesn’t work. Imagine that someone missed a meeting, that means that this person will have a month break that, that is collapsing, and then after two three months, it may happen that the client is like, Yeah, but we don’t feed the dog and see the value consultant is frustrated, and no one wants to work no one wants to work with each other,

David Bain
so it’s not the book called Getting Things Done is it that you’re thinking yes yeah getting, getting things done is by Dave David Allen.

Lukasz Zelezny
Exactly. So I met David Allen on summer meeting like this this this yearly meetup, and he was very, very clear that if you want to make things happen. Things don’t deliver, then you need to have this focus on this rhythm week is absolutely fantastic natural distance between, between two meetings.

David Bain
And the last question that someone hiring an SEO consultant you’d ask is what deliverables, can we expect from you.

Lukasz Zelezny
Yes, so I always, as a first, I’m telling to my to my potential customers that. Listen, I’m here to take care of KPIs, I’m here to take care of reporting. I’m here to give you understanding of this reporting pinpoint problems, every meeting we starting with going through the dashboard with results. And then we going into the work was done and what needs to be done. So this planning session. Additionally, you know, There is lots of things that are ongoing, like I mentioned before like maybe in house to meet some ideas for content, they would really like to write about something that is useful for visitors but also bring them traffic. I know methodology, I have the workshop. Maybe not the workshop, but this is not a good one. I have the practice to do this, and I can not only prepare this spreadsheet which will contain topics or which will contain potential places where they can ask for some partnership, and, you know, content syndication. But also, I can start teaching, because it’s also part of being consultant teaching the in house thing with how to do them, how to do this. Researchers by themselves. I can recommend them tools, I can then give them training with this tools, and this SEO, which is the most important thing to every client, the DNA of SEO is getting into the company, something that everyone was saying, always like, Oh yeah, SEO, so we’ll we’ll do this at Friday and don’t know, it was really mixed with the company. It must really get into the component. And when that will get into the company, then that’s the moment when, you know, there is no more like, oh we changing the website. Website change, have you done 301 or direction. What do you mean, now, then everyone from the content team is like shit, man, we need first to check traffic we need to check with which which URLs delivering this traffic, and then developers are taking three step back and saying like, Okay, let’s do this. So we want destroy what these guys were working on, and that’s the moment, pretty much you know then that the company is almost like self sufficient and I have like a red button here, and um then like pressing

David Bain
ejector seat for you yes yeah and you’re

Lukasz Zelezny
like next.

David Bain
I like I love your passion. It’s infectious. It really is. And I’m Lucas being Lucas you couldn’t just leave it to the six questions you had to provide two bonus questions. And so that was what not to ask so the first of those is, how many links will you deliver per month. What, why shouldn’t yes that question.

Lukasz Zelezny
This is the question. Yeah, it’s like, you know some people, some business owners are still thinking that SEO equal link building, or Link building is okay, buying links, how many things you can deliver, and I’m like, Listen, you have so much things to do on your website that you and you have so many links already, that when we will fix here. This links will be working much better for you, and you don’t need to worry about this. Yeah, but I would like to leave. I’m like, sorry I cannot help you then. Oh well you know I like I like this claim was like, Yeah, we were trying everything, it didn’t work we need links. I was like, so maybe you was trying this wrong, give me a chance, I can I can prove maybe or maybe not, but I can at least try to bring you some new ideas and new paths. And you know, you will not end up with buying links because these 2021 It’s not anymore like you know 2003, where you could buy links boom first page and you know you have reached domain like Yes.

David Bain
And your second question that people shouldn’t ask an SEO consultant is what are your hourly rates, why is that.

Lukasz Zelezny
Yeah, I don’t like this question because first of all I have fixed rate flat rate, monthly, my out also as a consultant, My added value, is that, you know, I’m not like an agency, so I don’t need, let’s say, for a big project say like, oh my God I need to hire people put the job specs, and we will need to bring people, and then I need to lock these people, and I need to lock client with contracts so I’m always saying like, Listen, my added value, and my unique selling point is I’m not handcuffing you to me with a contract. I want you to work with me because you like this. And because you want. And because I want and because you know there is this common passion between me and your company, and you can come to me and say anytime, look us. That’s enough, or because I don’t like you, or look as I know everything from you. Now I want to do this by myself, various scenarios. Yeah, so because of that, I don’t like this question, what is your rate per hour, because I see that they are like some people’s mistress. Mistress and Gnosis like, Oh, this guy is that much for our disguise that much per hour so this one. And also, you know, per hour, sometimes it’s not like per hour, sometimes you thinking, sitting in with a coffee in a kitchen how to do this or that with that project. How can you calculate this. So, you know, it’s a legacy of lino like maybe working somewhere where the hours are important. Yeah

David Bain
I mean it’s a it’s the classic tale you, you have a washing machine that doesn’t work and you refund someone in to fix it and it takes them five minutes to fix it and they give you a bill for 200 pounds, and you say what, you know 200 pounds for five minutes of your time. Well, maybe how about the five years of training, it took them to figure out exactly, exactly.

Lukasz Zelezny
Exactly, and you cannot imagine how happy I am to call for a guy who can fix a lock to my garden to the door, and I’m paying him the right one, But I know it’s fixed. And I don’t care how much he was working it fix, he’s an expert.

David Bain
Let’s segue to part two of our discussions that focuses on Lucas’s thoughts on the state of digital marketing today so starting off with secret software so Lucas, share a lesser known Mark more tech tool that’s bringing a lot of value at the moment and why that tool is important for you.

Lukasz Zelezny
So I just wanted to mention two tools. The first one is inlinkz.org, which is a tool that gave you ability to build, pretty much on any website. Internal links, and he’s doing this extremely clever way is also based on JavaScript, so he’s able to inject schema markups, with semantics is using entities rather than keywords so he’s doing topical analysis is also injecting FAQ snippets, and I could see lots of benefits, especially for smaller website or website that had problem of indexation, you very quickly can build like amazing structure of internal links, and you can manage this outside of the main website, which I really like when I’m working with Magento I’m not a fan of Magento backend. Generally when I see Magento back end, then I’m just getting a bit sparse spasms, you know, it’s like, like, like you’re trying to punish yourself. Now I will be in the, you know, and then I’m going to WordPress and I feel so relaxed and I’m back to Magento and I’m so stressed, and you know, and then endlinks.org is coming. And I know that the both websites can do the thing, and can do them, you know, can can get this eternal links, and then you go on to schema markup checker or rich, rich snippet tester, richer as a tester to, and you can see that there are this same as schemas. So Google understand much better, what you wrote about when using what film, not necessarily that may not necessarily mean you’re talking about the movies, it may mean that you’re talking about plastic film to cover to package food or something like that, which is one of my new clients, I’m working with this manufacturer which is doing this, packages, and the second tool, If I can also jump is word lift. So it’s also about semantics and schema around content. They are not building internal links, but they are also giving lots of added value to website which are relatively heavy on content. I am so much into this both tools that I’m using them simultaneously together

David Bain
great resources okay but now it’s time to give someone a mention someone else who deserves it, someone who’s maybe an up and coming marketer and good to follow on social media so that is Article marketer. So what’s an up and coming marketer you’d like to give a shout out to and what can we learn from them, and where can we find them.

Lukasz Zelezny
So I would like to mention Ariege abahlali She’s doing amazing. She’s She’s, she’s kind of an amazing, amazing community of so called Women in Tech SEO. And also, this is like kind of local patriotism because she’s also working in Zoopla where I was working in the past. We haven’t had a chance to work together, but I am observing her for some time and I can see that she’s very active. If you type erage Abu Ali, then then you will find her on Twitter, you will find her on LinkedIn, or you can write original Abu Ali Zoopla, and like I said, the there is a website woman in tech SEO. I think I’m doing. I’m saying this right woman in tech SEO Yes, yes, and this is this community, which I am really, really, kind of, fingers crossed and really, I think this is amazing project, and yeah, lots of respect for that.

David Bain
Super job and I know, reach as well. In fact, I used to work with a region the past as well so she’s isn’t. So of course I’ll leave links to your age in links we’re lifting any other resources that you mentioned in the YouTube show description and also in the podcast show notes, but let’s move on to this or that route. So this is the quick response round 10 Quick questions just two rules here, Try not to think about the answer too much and you’re only allowed to say the word both on one occasion so use it wisely. Are you ready to go. Yeah. Tick tock, or Twitter,

Unknown Speaker
or Twitter,

David Bain
Facebook or LinkedIn. LinkedIn, YouTube, or podcast. YouTube traffic or leads. Paid search or SEO.

Unknown Speaker
SEO

David Bain
ads or influencers. Google ads or Facebook ads,

David Bain
email, or chat, email, Mar tech stack or all in one platform.

Lukasz Zelezny
market stuck,

David Bain
and one to one or scale.

Unknown Speaker
Scale

David Bain
straight through, no problem at all. I was probably most surprised at the fact that you said ads instead of influencers because I was thinking that you being an organic champ, you’d actually be be more into focusing on influencer so so why did you say ads they’re

Lukasz Zelezny
generally because Instagram kind of took me a bit out of the influencers. You know I am having a big doubts about how well this kind of, there is very specifically one product, energy drink bank, and every second lady on Instagram with million plus followers is doing nothing but just walking somewhere to the kitchen and just by just, just by accident, like, you know, buying, and then every second, like, and how much they are selling, because you see like what the Red Bull is doing for many many years and this is like, you know, something which could become like a perfect example of kind of strategy marketing strategy. And, you know like, yeah, I have a bit of distance to the, to the concept of influencing an influencer, it may work in some areas, but definitely I am the not convinced yet to buy bank energy drink. And by the way I remember the question you asked me six years ago, it was, email, or no, it was a newsletter newsletter, or, or social media.

David Bain
Okay and remember has your opinion changed in that you say

Lukasz Zelezny
it didn’t, I think I said newsletter.

David Bain
Okay, I’ll have to go back and research that in fact, anyone can go back and listen to that term, it’s still alive on YouTube at the moment on the digital marketing radio YouTube channel, I was perhaps thinking of enlisting the ones that were quite old, but I will certainly give anyone an option two is to listen to that if you want to now go and listen to it again just to see what you answered I changed a couple of those. This or That rain questions as you notice just to update them slightly. Hopefully they’re we’re still challenging and relevant,

Lukasz Zelezny
you should you should then do a ranking of right and wrong dancers and, you know, Hall of Fame. Exactly. Every season there should be like, you know, a winner.

David Bain
I should send a big package to someone who is what is most correct there’s no right or wrong really is to get a feel for what you’re likely to believe or be passionate about in terms of digital marketing and I think that the ads or influencers question that you answer just emphasises how, you know, a little subtle, maybe unexpected answer can make me want to delve deeper into a particular subject so it’s I think it’s, it’s good for doing that kind of thing.

Unknown Speaker
Absolutely. Okay, well

David Bain
let’s delve into,

Unknown Speaker
let’s delve into the $10,000 question,

David Bain
if I was to give you $10,000 And you had to spend over the next few days in a single thing, to grow your business, what would you spend it on and how would you measure success.

Lukasz Zelezny
Oh my god I wrote three things but they are kind of merging to one thing I would set up a website on server both the highest package, the hosting server both, and I would plug the enterprise Cloudflare and I would buy for, for the rest of money that the left, I would buy content, a lot of very good content.

David Bain
So what type of content would you buy what type of content works best now.

Lukasz Zelezny
I think the content which is. So you see, there is something that I call non direct duplication and non direct duplication in my vocabulary is a situation when the content per se is unique, but it’s talking about the same well you can find on hundreds of other websites, top 10 things you should see in London. London I will Westminster Kings Cross, like an every website is talking about the same, and you cannot make improvements yeah here. And so, I would like to build, for example a website which is heavy content, but you know like when you write camera versus camera you compared digital cameras, and you can put Nick on this model versus can on this model and it’s kind of comparing this parameters just kind of, you know the price the durability. The number of lenses you can place, and you can see the straightaway like, like like, like, like a scorecard, you know, the same ISO for a cuts, cuts with two breeds of cats you can compare how friendly they are to Doc how friendly they are to other cats how friendly they are to a kids, and how friendly they are to your wife, so that’s no there was nothing about wife. There are so many kids, kids, dogs and lifespan, how many hairs you will have in your, in your house, and so on and then you can see like, Okay, this cat, versus this cat which breed I would like to buy, you know, something like that, something like CrunchBase for example have a database about companies and investor investment in very nice form that you can click click click Build a filter and you can see amazing results. London companies operating in medical industry that been. Get that received investment in last 12 months. Yeah, maybe some of them would be potentially your reply.

David Bain
Do you think that that type of content, can you compare a different to different things content can be automatically generated and still be decent quality because when, for instance, I’m often searching for comparisons on electric items, technology or whatever, and I’ll put two different brand names in there, and most results that have comparisons are just to compare the two very technically, they don’t really tell me from a user experience, which one is best. So I would think that if you are to produce that type of content that it needs to be manually created to certain extent, is that right.

Lukasz Zelezny
Yeah, so you see that I think that we are a bit, we are digesting content a bit different way. Maybe because you know I’m working so many hours a day with data, then, you know, I hate, If someone is sending me some, some potential data in Word. I’m like, put this to Excel and it must be in the right column, it was almost like CSV and my brain is working the same way I’m coming to the website, and I love when I can put like three devices, and compare all the factors or, you know, alternativ to. So, you know, alternative to Zendesk here and you have Jeetu with couple of different different helpdesk software’s I’m never reading this content that is written there by people. I’m always looking for numbers factors, you know, revenue by people. Okay, fair enough. That’s user generated kind of content, then price, then, you know, I don’t know what, how many users I might have, you know, seminars is a good example you’re going there you have three packages, how many projects how many keywords. I don’t read this kind of like, I had a good experience with this package but with this i i felt lost, for example, yeah. You know, I need numbers, and I think there is a certain number of people that like to digest this information this way. Obviously there is always ARIA to write content and then potentially I can engage more people who like to read, potentially like you, but you know having a big data that can be processed, and that can be you know like Zoopla for example, they had all the properties that are across UK, US typing any address. And very often universe landing on Zoopla website.

David Bain
So I guess I’m talking about more intangible experiences. So, if, if someone has had a really bad experience with customer service or not getting a refund or something like that, that’s the kind of thing I’d like to know about a brand before making a decision to buy from the.

Lukasz Zelezny
I see nothing new. I was never thinking this way, I’m sometimes going to Trustpilot, to check the reviews, and I love when there is this abandoned Trustpilot, that is not managed by the crew, then I know that this is very natural. And when I even see six of them, I’m like, oh that’s actually quite not bad for abandon the spiral because let’s have Trustpilot, which are managed. It’s like pump.

David Bain
Yeah, exactly. Yeah absolutely, you have to bear those things in mind. Look, we can talk all day about this on any number of topics I’m sure but let’s focus in on the last question I’m going to ask you here and that is something that not you’re doing at the moment is something that you’re going to be doing in the future. So

Unknown Speaker
next on the list,

David Bain
what’s one marketing activity or two that you haven’t tried yet, But you want to try soon

Lukasz Zelezny
yeah big ml big ml and SEO so artificial intelligence, machine learning, and SEO, and there is a funny story because I discovered this big ml. Some time ago, and I was playing a little, And then I went to Swindon, to my, my to say brothers, almost like from Smarter media, an agency that I am also working with as a non Executive Director, and you know I was telling about this and we were talking and we were very exciting, and then literally the same week or week after someone wrote an very very nice article about big ml and SEO. I don’t remember right now, if that was on surgeon in journal or research, an inland, or other website, but one of this, and that even make me more excited to start playing with it, just couple of months ago I haven’t had that much time. Because, you know, you know me I’m sleeping like one and a half hour a day

David Bain
24 hours we’re talking about not not during the day.

Lukasz Zelezny
Yeah, yeah, but, but yeah this is the machine learning and SEO so that the guy was showing a very nice use case. As far as I remember it was based on existing data of keywords and corresponding pages that Google choose to match, he was using this as a, as a kind of pattern, this, he was using this pattern as a how to say, as a kind of place to look at, and then he was taking other data with keywords and based on this pattern which was the original pattern, machine learning was trying to define what would be the best pages based on the new keywords that have been not correlated yet. So you know completely different approach. Rather than doing lots of ifs and find, and we look ups in Excel, you are using a cluster of artificial intelligence to learn, and then to do something great and I mean, I’ve been for some time, not that excited about artificial intelligence, and then I started to understanding how powerful it is looking that for example, you can convert your photo to look like that would be Picasso painting, and again you have like Picasso, and then you have a Euro photo, and it’s taking this original picture and it’s trying to convert, and it takes 2030 minutes because he up.